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	<title>Comments on: Does Human Nature Rule Out The Establishment Of Colonies?</title>
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	<description>Scooping up science news and dropping it on your desk</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5893</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://ebony-nude6933.blogspot.com&quot;&gt;nude ebony&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://ebony-nude6933.blogspot.com">nude ebony</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sylvia Engdahl</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5793</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvia Engdahl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5793</guid>
		<description>Earth has not been &quot;nearly destroyed,&quot; but it will be in time if we don&#039;t expand our civilization beyond it.  The problems we now have are the &lt;i&gt;natural result&lt;/i&gt; of our species being ready to colonize (in the biological sense of the term) a new ecological niche: the niche of space and lifeless--or almost lifeless--planets.  Failure to do so would be the surest way to bring about the future destruction not only of Earth&#039;s resources, and not only of our own species, but of all other species that share our home world.  

&lt;p&gt;To those who like the metaphor of Mother Earth as Gaia and argue that she is not healthy, my answer has been that her symptoms are due not to illness but to the fact that she is pregnant.  This, I think, says it all. I was once going to write something using the pregnancy metaphor, until I discovered that others have also thought of it and have mentioned it on the Web--so I can&#039;t call it an original one.  It nevertheless is apt.

&lt;p&gt;If there are other intelligent species out in the universe, they could not &quot;limit&quot; our space exploration efforts unless they themselves have expanded into space! They could not even know about our space activities without being space explorers, unless their home worlds are close that they&#039;ve already picked up our radio broadcasts, which is highly unlikely. So the suggestion that they would disapprove of space exploration is self-contradictory.  (For my view of how very advanced civilizations view civilizations of less mature species, please read my novels &lt;i&gt;Enchantress from the Stars&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;The Far Side of Evil.&lt;/i&gt;)

&lt;p&gt;In my opinion, all intelligent species ultimately colonize beyond their mother planets -- either that, or they become extinct, which is what happens to any species if it is unable to expand into a new niche when the resources of the old become inadequate.  We are not exempt from the natural laws of evolution.  Though our means of occupying a new niche is different from that of the first creatures to move from the sea onto land, it is no less a part of the evolutionary process;
to abort that process would be contrary to the principles under which all life exists.

&lt;p&gt;Because we can partially foresee the effects of our actions, however, we do have more choice than locusts do.  We can choose to expand into space &lt;i&gt;before&lt;/i&gt; we&#039;ve consumed everything in our path to survival, instead of waiting until it&#039;s too late to preserve Earth&#039;s environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Earth has not been &#8220;nearly destroyed,&#8221; but it will be in time if we don&#8217;t expand our civilization beyond it.  The problems we now have are the <i>natural result</i> of our species being ready to colonize (in the biological sense of the term) a new ecological niche: the niche of space and lifeless&#8211;or almost lifeless&#8211;planets.  Failure to do so would be the surest way to bring about the future destruction not only of Earth&#8217;s resources, and not only of our own species, but of all other species that share our home world.  </p>
<p>To those who like the metaphor of Mother Earth as Gaia and argue that she is not healthy, my answer has been that her symptoms are due not to illness but to the fact that she is pregnant.  This, I think, says it all. I was once going to write something using the pregnancy metaphor, until I discovered that others have also thought of it and have mentioned it on the Web&#8211;so I can&#8217;t call it an original one.  It nevertheless is apt.</p>
<p>If there are other intelligent species out in the universe, they could not &#8220;limit&#8221; our space exploration efforts unless they themselves have expanded into space! They could not even know about our space activities without being space explorers, unless their home worlds are close that they&#8217;ve already picked up our radio broadcasts, which is highly unlikely. So the suggestion that they would disapprove of space exploration is self-contradictory.  (For my view of how very advanced civilizations view civilizations of less mature species, please read my novels <i>Enchantress from the Stars</i> and <i>The Far Side of Evil.</i>)</p>
<p>In my opinion, all intelligent species ultimately colonize beyond their mother planets &#8212; either that, or they become extinct, which is what happens to any species if it is unable to expand into a new niche when the resources of the old become inadequate.  We are not exempt from the natural laws of evolution.  Though our means of occupying a new niche is different from that of the first creatures to move from the sea onto land, it is no less a part of the evolutionary process;<br />
to abort that process would be contrary to the principles under which all life exists.</p>
<p>Because we can partially foresee the effects of our actions, however, we do have more choice than locusts do.  We can choose to expand into space <i>before</i> we&#8217;ve consumed everything in our path to survival, instead of waiting until it&#8217;s too late to preserve Earth&#8217;s environment.</p>
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		<title>By: susang</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5745</link>
		<dc:creator>susang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5745</guid>
		<description>Why does mankind toy with the idea of colonizing and exploiting another planet when he has done a fine job of nearly destroying earth? Are humans therefore, no more than locusts? If there is intelligent life out in the universe I can only hope they will limit human space exploration efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does mankind toy with the idea of colonizing and exploiting another planet when he has done a fine job of nearly destroying earth? Are humans therefore, no more than locusts? If there is intelligent life out in the universe I can only hope they will limit human space exploration efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: J n</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5690</link>
		<dc:creator>J n</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5690</guid>
		<description>I think that the ultimate goal of space travel IS colinization of another planet. As a species if we expect to survive 10,000 years more we NEED to not have &quot;all of our eggs in one basket&quot;. What if a large asteroid destroys Earth... should that be the end of all humans... what about the dammage we are doing to the planet? Expenontal population growth? No the soloution to these problems is Not just moving to another planet, but expanding the area for humans to live and expanding our resource base IS part of the ultimate soloution. Either that or mass suicide, Which ultimatly is what staying here and only here will be. 

J-n 

I apologize for spelling and grammar mistakes, writing is not my forte. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the ultimate goal of space travel IS colinization of another planet. As a species if we expect to survive 10,000 years more we NEED to not have &#8220;all of our eggs in one basket&#8221;. What if a large asteroid destroys Earth&#8230; should that be the end of all humans&#8230; what about the dammage we are doing to the planet? Expenontal population growth? No the soloution to these problems is Not just moving to another planet, but expanding the area for humans to live and expanding our resource base IS part of the ultimate soloution. Either that or mass suicide, Which ultimatly is what staying here and only here will be. </p>
<p>J-n </p>
<p>I apologize for spelling and grammar mistakes, writing is not my forte.</p>
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		<title>By: kelleyb</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5628</link>
		<dc:creator>kelleyb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5628</guid>
		<description>Technological growth can serve as the basis for economic and sociological growth and human evolution.

NASA has less peer-reviewed science than NIH, which is why NASA has been inefficient.

Innovation goes down as politics becomes the criteria for advancement among scientists.

Bush wants to kill all space science that might, someday, actually get us into space. As opposed to silly assed posturing designed to start a Cold War with China and enrich General Dynamics, General Electric, and Halliburton, among other Carlyle group affiliates.

The problem with the desire to &quot;dominate&quot; space militarily is that we do not have and will not encourage the scientific and engineering base to do it with. There is currently a drive in the White House to end all peer-reviewed science. They haven&#039;t the slightest idea how to actualize their fantasies, and they have nothing but contempt for the analytical process it takes to develop it. 

Look for covert attempts to sabotage the space programs of other countries, the government realizes it is incompetent to run its own space program.

This country could have moon and Mars colonies in a generation, and interplanetary ships and stations capable of reasonably safe space exploration and development. We&#039;re human, we&#039;re animals, but we&#039;re also a tropical species that selected for an intelligence that allows us to live and succeed in incredibly harsh environments. For the people that want it, space colonies will be a boon.

But this country won&#039;t do it, because it doesn&#039;t understand the concept of scientific peer review, and it has nothing but contempt for the kind of people it takes to do science and accomplish the engineering. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Technological growth can serve as the basis for economic and sociological growth and human evolution.</p>
<p>NASA has less peer-reviewed science than NIH, which is why NASA has been inefficient.</p>
<p>Innovation goes down as politics becomes the criteria for advancement among scientists.</p>
<p>Bush wants to kill all space science that might, someday, actually get us into space. As opposed to silly assed posturing designed to start a Cold War with China and enrich General Dynamics, General Electric, and Halliburton, among other Carlyle group affiliates.</p>
<p>The problem with the desire to &#8220;dominate&#8221; space militarily is that we do not have and will not encourage the scientific and engineering base to do it with. There is currently a drive in the White House to end all peer-reviewed science. They haven&#8217;t the slightest idea how to actualize their fantasies, and they have nothing but contempt for the analytical process it takes to develop it. </p>
<p>Look for covert attempts to sabotage the space programs of other countries, the government realizes it is incompetent to run its own space program.</p>
<p>This country could have moon and Mars colonies in a generation, and interplanetary ships and stations capable of reasonably safe space exploration and development. We&#8217;re human, we&#8217;re animals, but we&#8217;re also a tropical species that selected for an intelligence that allows us to live and succeed in incredibly harsh environments. For the people that want it, space colonies will be a boon.</p>
<p>But this country won&#8217;t do it, because it doesn&#8217;t understand the concept of scientific peer review, and it has nothing but contempt for the kind of people it takes to do science and accomplish the engineering.</p>
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		<title>By: apsmith</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5558</link>
		<dc:creator>apsmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5558</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve spent about $5 billion on Mars robotic missions so far - many of them have failed (close to 2/3 I believe). The cost of a first human mission would not be much more. Robots are expensive too, and unfortunately still too unreliable and inflexible to be as useful as real people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve spent about $5 billion on Mars robotic missions so far &#8211; many of them have failed (close to 2/3 I believe). The cost of a first human mission would not be much more. Robots are expensive too, and unfortunately still too unreliable and inflexible to be as useful as real people.</p>
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		<title>By: Drog</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5477</link>
		<dc:creator>Drog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5477</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s just a matter of time. Already studies are underway to find the genes responsible for high intelligence. First will come genetic screening of the &quot;bad genes&quot; in the sperm and egg to create a child free of genetic diseases and predispositions to diseases. Then will come genetic selection of the sperm and egg with the &quot;good genes&quot; that make us athletic or more intelligent. Then we&#039;ll start to artificialy introduce good genes (that neither parent carried) into our sperm and egg so to create children better than nature would have allowed. And finally, we&#039;ll begin to create new genes that never existed in nature before, so as to radically increase our intelligence and other physical characteristics. Our species will likely be much, much different several hundred years from now (if we&#039;re still here).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s just a matter of time. Already studies are underway to find the genes responsible for high intelligence. First will come genetic screening of the &#8220;bad genes&#8221; in the sperm and egg to create a child free of genetic diseases and predispositions to diseases. Then will come genetic selection of the sperm and egg with the &#8220;good genes&#8221; that make us athletic or more intelligent. Then we&#8217;ll start to artificialy introduce good genes (that neither parent carried) into our sperm and egg so to create children better than nature would have allowed. And finally, we&#8217;ll begin to create new genes that never existed in nature before, so as to radically increase our intelligence and other physical characteristics. Our species will likely be much, much different several hundred years from now (if we&#8217;re still here).</p>
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		<title>By: Drog</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5381</link>
		<dc:creator>Drog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5381</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;d agree with you completely were it not for the possibility that we may soon have a working &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2002/11/20/94722/045&quot;&gt;space elevator&lt;/a&gt; on Earth. The existence of a space elevator will make it &lt;i&gt;much&lt;/i&gt; easier and less expensive to build large ships (with large fuel tanks) in orbit. These ships, bound for Mars, would never need to touch an atmosphere and so could employ very simple designs (a big cube, for instance) which further cuts down costs. These ships might well be within the reach of corporations to fund.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And if our first project on Mars is to build a space elevator there, that makes travel from the surface of Earth to the surface of Mars much less costly. I actually don&#039;t think that any sort of colonization on Mars will happen at all until space elevators are first built here and there. Too costly and dangerous without them--especially if part of the economic payoff of going there is to mine its resources and send it back to Earth.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d agree with you completely were it not for the possibility that we may soon have a working <a href="http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2002/11/20/94722/045">space elevator</a> on Earth. The existence of a space elevator will make it <i>much</i> easier and less expensive to build large ships (with large fuel tanks) in orbit. These ships, bound for Mars, would never need to touch an atmosphere and so could employ very simple designs (a big cube, for instance) which further cuts down costs. These ships might well be within the reach of corporations to fund.</p>
<p>And if our first project on Mars is to build a space elevator there, that makes travel from the surface of Earth to the surface of Mars much less costly. I actually don&#8217;t think that any sort of colonization on Mars will happen at all until space elevators are first built here and there. Too costly and dangerous without them&#8211;especially if part of the economic payoff of going there is to mine its resources and send it back to Earth.</p>
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		<title>By: Chronosphere</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5270</link>
		<dc:creator>Chronosphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5270</guid>
		<description>You are correct in defining the principle behind modern economics. I focused on the result and not in the source, but in the end I feel one takes us to the other.

So, I stick with my thinking, it is because of this monetarian based economy (propelled by the desire of personal gain above anything and anyone else), that half the humanity doesnt have anything to eat. It is not what would happen in a well administrated and efficient society.

And I agree, what I say here will not happen anytime soon. Personal Greed is many times more important for the common individual than having a true civilization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct in defining the principle behind modern economics. I focused on the result and not in the source, but in the end I feel one takes us to the other.</p>
<p>So, I stick with my thinking, it is because of this monetarian based economy (propelled by the desire of personal gain above anything and anyone else), that half the humanity doesnt have anything to eat. It is not what would happen in a well administrated and efficient society.</p>
<p>And I agree, what I say here will not happen anytime soon. Personal Greed is many times more important for the common individual than having a true civilization.</p>
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		<title>By: billg</title>
		<link>http://www.sciscoop.com/2004-1-21-13652-1808.html/comment-page-1#comment-5140</link>
		<dc:creator>billg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2004 06:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/~arielschwartz/wordpress/sciscoop/?p=700#comment-5140</guid>
		<description>Economics isn&#039;t the reason too many people are hungry.  Economics isn&#039;t the reason people lack medical care.  Those things are caused by human nature. Economics attempts to explain how people behave, it has nothing to do with the motivation for that behavior.&lt;p&gt;

The desire for personal gain -- financial and otherwise -- will be fundamental to space exploraton and colonization, as it was to human expansion across Earth.
&lt;p&gt;
So, blaming economics for the world&#039;s ills is analagous to blaming medical science for disease.
&lt;p&gt;
It seems self-evident that colonies, either here on Earth or on other planets, succeed if they meet one of two basic criteria:
&lt;p&gt;
1) The colonies serve a purpose that is so important to the home nation/planet that it is willing to transfer whatever resources it takes to sustain the colony.  I.e., run the place at a loss.  Examples might include military outposts.
&lt;p&gt;
2) The colonies become increasingly self-sufficient and eventually reach the point at which they obtain all necessary resources locally or by engaging in trade with others.

Colonies require resources. If the resources aren&#039;t available, a colony will fail.
&lt;p&gt;
As for all this somehow not being logical and efficient...well, we&#039;re not Vulcans, are we? What you are suggesting requires a fundamental change in human behavior.  I don&#039;t think we&#039;re going to see that.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economics isn&#8217;t the reason too many people are hungry.  Economics isn&#8217;t the reason people lack medical care.  Those things are caused by human nature. Economics attempts to explain how people behave, it has nothing to do with the motivation for that behavior.
<p>The desire for personal gain &#8212; financial and otherwise &#8212; will be fundamental to space exploraton and colonization, as it was to human expansion across Earth.
</p>
<p>
So, blaming economics for the world&#8217;s ills is analagous to blaming medical science for disease.
</p>
<p>
It seems self-evident that colonies, either here on Earth or on other planets, succeed if they meet one of two basic criteria:
</p>
<p>
1) The colonies serve a purpose that is so important to the home nation/planet that it is willing to transfer whatever resources it takes to sustain the colony.  I.e., run the place at a loss.  Examples might include military outposts.
</p>
<p>
2) The colonies become increasingly self-sufficient and eventually reach the point at which they obtain all necessary resources locally or by engaging in trade with others.</p>
<p>Colonies require resources. If the resources aren&#8217;t available, a colony will fail.
</p>
<p>
As for all this somehow not being logical and efficient&#8230;well, we&#8217;re not Vulcans, are we? What you are suggesting requires a fundamental change in human behavior.  I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re going to see that.</p>
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